Ms Ngoc Anh Pham is a fashion brand owner and designer. She has lived in Europe for many years and brings new winds of Western aesthetics into her statement pieces. She continues to redefine fashion and traditionalism through her modern and innovative approaches. She is proud to say she is a trend creator who focuses on sustainability in her clothing lines. In my first impressions, her clothing collection is a fusion of Vietnamese traditional style and cross-border elements, that are all noticeably modest in a contemporary manner. As a person born during periods of socioeconomic changes, she has profound exposure to the changing ideals of fashions. 

I interviewed her on the topic of intermixing of culture, design and shifting concepts of fashion seen through women's choice of dress. 

The Ao Dai has gone through periods of renovation (i.e: seen through different necklines(boat neck, etc.). For the current era, she believes that the comfort and flexibility of the Ao Dai represent an individuality that is elevated/liberated after women have a more equal position in society?

I think that fashion is based on social life less than it is about culture. In the old times, only the noblest woman could wear Ao Dai because they did not have to work, only enjoy. Nowaday, women have more responsibilities and they are more dynamic. Therefore, it requires a certain comfort and multifunctional fashionable pathway that can cater to the roles and social placement of women in society. While it still can be trendy, it must cater to utility and function.

I would not agree that it derived from Europe descent. Fashion is a mixture of footprints which people and culture leave, and it is so heterogenous that we cannot conclude it derives from any certain place. This statement, to this day, still cause many controversy. I personally believe it has clear Eastern rather than Western traces. The Ao Dai specifically has two flaps, which resembles the clothing of China, India or Pakistan. No culture is copying another. In fashion, we must always start somewhere: a base. From that base, we develop it in our own way and if successful, it flowers into a very iconic, fashionable piece.

"The new fights with the old", do you think there is a compromise between transformation and maintaining tradition in contemporary or innovative ao dai design (for example, short-sleeved ao dai, sexy ao dai, inspired by "ao yem"...etc) or not? Or with the transition of generations and society, do you see a conflicting aesthetic or vision of beauty between different generations?

Fashion lies in the space between your skin and the clothes. The clothing itself is just simply material, it is the person that brings the soul and makes the piece tell a story. Every era there is a story to tell, and that story transcribes onto the clothes that we wear. Of course there exists deviations, but I would not call it clashes on the idea of aesthetics. What we find beautiful in one culture, I am certain that over the time it will not change drastically. We just add onto it, for instance, being that makes Ao Dai more functional, shorter or sustainable.

In recent years, have the movements, trends or consumption styles of women and ao dai been shaped more through culture, politics or economics?

That is because the country’s political state with a mindset of non-integration does not permit that. Always remember that fashion is tied to the economy because it is a luxury good. In the American or French war, people cannot wear opulent clothes with expensive embroidery because that is insensitive to suffering and poverty.

Despite Vietnam being a manufacturer of big clothing brands, I believe our industry in fashion and clothing (that is our own) is in a nascent stage. It is common sense that we are a “fabric and manufacturing hub”, but we are only emergin as a fashion hotspot. Because our economy is blooming, fashion and the way women dress flowers in parallel to that. If women dress more modestly, it is because it caters to both their values and the economy. If they don’t, it might be that they are not limited to do so because they have new desires and aspirations.

Ao Dai is favored by many Vietnamese artists to portray a dignified, virtuous, and gentle girl. For someone working in the profession, do you think that messages about the traditional values of Vietnamese girls are meant to build value or subjugate women to a framework?

In the older generations, parents place their children to fit a certain framework (bố mẹ đặt đau con ngồi đấy). There was an expectation to act and behave a certain way. But throughout the years, Vietnamese women just hasn’t erased or obliterated those demeanor either, because there is great value in it. Those same qualities are continuously honored and celebrated in modern society. For an artist. There is something delicate and expressive about drawing a woman. Not just in Vietnam, not just depending on the era, I believe gentleness, virtue and dignity are characteristics in a woman that will always be received in a positive light. It is, to me, a privilege to be soft and delicate and nurtured by others.

On the rare occasions that I wear an Ao Dai, I unconsciously carry myself with more poise and elegance. I seem to be more soft-spoken too, Let’s say a woman with a bright smile, soft voice, you will feel enticed and hypnotized talking to her. If she is in a flowy Ao Dai, that doubles the enticement.
For example, in the 1960s, Tham Thuy Hang, Kieu Trinh, and Mong Tuyen wore dark lipstick, sharp eyebrows, messy hair, and wavy hair, which were fashion icons of the time. Nowadays, people still dress up and wear makeup when wearing ao dai, but there is a less selective and increased diversity in their appearance and dress. Do you think this is a negative or positive trajectory for Vietnamese society and womanhood?  

For this question, I think it is based largely on historical context. They were certainly iconic during those times. But we must note that Sai Gon were influenced by the ‘Americans and we northerns were influenced by the Soviet and China. Whatever sociocultural ideals are valued, it translates onto things like fashion.

Now, with a new injection of people from different continents coming to Vietnam, or Vietnamese people from abroad returning home, every single person brings their own touch, nuance, mix and style into enriching the fashion industry. It is not to say that they have become completely Westernized, but they know how to balance between and retaining those pillars, and essentials of Vietnamese culture. I think it’s really beautiful and almost essential to show that we are not reluctant to change while simultaneously embracing core, “old-fashioned” ideals.

He is a coordinator at the Muses ArtSpace in Hanoi Old Quarter, and holds a deep passion for the arts. While his trajectory in the art realms is more on the contemporary and modern side, he respects a cultivation of diverse modes of art, including more traditional style. He graduated from the Arts University of Hanoi, and explores various pathways into this discipline including cross-regional art conferences. Currently, he is taking respite from artmaking process to work at the art gallery. I interviewed him on the topic of ideological and cultural messages, and intergenerational shifts, and its effect on art depicting Vietnamese women. 

As a younger generation, do you think political or cultural developments have played a more pivotal role in shaping art about Vietnamese women?

I think that in the context of War, it is obvious that there is that constructed image of A War Mother hero. For the man to go to the front line, it is necessary that the image of a woman as a solid and robust domestic figure. However, within the modern context, the generational and cultural shift plays a more pivotal role about changing the caricature or depiction of Vietnamese woman. The artist has a more internalized interpretation of a modern observation or cultural phenomenon that he or she can reflect on.

One example in the past is the painting Em Thuy by Tran Van Can in 1943, which is set during the war. Or a more contemporary example are paintings by Dinh Y Nhi, which hones into expressions, curves, shapes and lines of the body to reveal and conceal aspects of a woman. It is more about the inner beauty and characteristic of a Vietnamese woman. This is very quintessential to such modern and contemporary pieces. In Y Nhi’s piece, the external demeanor are intense but when you look inside her heart, it holds higher and different value. In the old society, beauty becomes more centralized to a certain ruler of measurement. But nowadays, artists focuses more on the inner aspirations of the woman as well as their internal tensions. All of this is almost emancipated and released in contemporary pieces through the woman’s demeanor and expressions that reveals more than they conceal.

In your opinion, how do the works depicting Vietnamese girls dressed (somewhat provocatively ) like an ao yem or more modestly like ao dai or ao ba ba honor femininity in different ways ?

I would not say it is provocative. When we talk about art, it is about logic and technique. But Fine art is the observation of visual sense, it goes along with Cultural studies too, that is a parallel story. Well, it's not about one being better than the other because one exist hand-in-hand with the other. For artists like Phan Cam Thuong, he stirs up debate and conversation.

For today's young generation, do you think there are many similarities or differences in the value of Vietnamese women compared to our "seniors" like mothers and grandmothers? So, are there intergenerational conflicts about hidden ideology? Does the originality overshadow the message of the painting?

Family is an institution for different visual perspectives - but influence is not. One is always attached to their family values and teachings but divert in their own ways. Intergenerational clashes are inevitable because we live in very different times. In many important events, our mothers and grandmothers will still dress up in the Ao Dai because they honor that said qualities of a Vietnamese woman. It may no longer be measurement and criteria of cultural beaty, but it is a unchanging value that is preserved throughout generation. There will still be people who are inclined towards preserving the old Women’s choice of beauty has transformed and developed, in a moderate manner that still retains the Eastern quintessence. Artworks has its own spiritual life. the concept of beauty follows the viewer more. Just like fashion, when you walk down the streets, you can see women. There is no set standard that is too restrictive, so fashion becomes something more selective and of choice.

After social and technological development, do you think art is enhancing traditional beauty by returning to core human values (eg: gentleness, decency, revolving around building nest, but still resilient to hardships in life)?

I think there is always beauty that is specific to Indochine women throughout the years. It conveys an unchanged value of a feminine figure that is still value and respected in society. The conflicts in terms of the dual role of a woman has existed in the past, but in a modern context, women have more freedom and their individuality and characteristics becomes liberated. They are still mothers, wives and daughters, but they actually have more desires than that and through the paintings, their inner feelings and aspirations can truly be expressed.

But beyond that, this view of beauty of external still maintains itself throughout the passage of time, but through the lens of an artist, we observe what we want to convey about clothing. Or personality or beautiful features, there are other parts of a woman's soul that also have things that can be said to be conflicts or problems. When it comes to people's inner lives, in a more modern society, people begin to have a more in-depth observation of the soul. Their protective layer and outer shell are being unveiled and taken off. That is where we talk about the generational and cultural shift.

Women of all times look in the mirror, buy clothes, and love fashion. That is the immutability of human nature. To me, women have the most primitive characteristics, the least political, I like this essential immutability. On the other hand, fashion develops gradually and repetitively. The skirt gets shorter and shorter until it can't be shorter anymore, then it becomes longer.

I also drew a few pictures of old and present fashion to compare, but the person wearing the fashion is still the same girl.

The themes of betel bag, comb mirror, and scarf are expressions of femininity, virtue, external beauty containing inner feelings.

In our discussion of the values of Vietnamese women depicted through painting, Mr Dat named the artist Le Pho as having a lucid clear and expressive voice on what the most desirable qualities of a woman are. Through these paintings, I can see that women are depicted in ways that are very delicate, gentle and maternal. Mr Dat also elaborates that drawing a woman is technically very different from drawing a man, there is softness in the lines and shapes and a strong emphasize on expression. A woman in an Ao Dai is also indicative of the nature of the man, if woman can't stand on their owns it is because they have the guiding hands of the men to lean on, women do everything in softness because they have a robust protective circle of men. These ideals are neither primitive nor condescending, but only showcases the beauty and the value of the femininity of a Vietnamese woman.